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	<title>Comments on: Learning from the Classics: Ultima Exodus</title>
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		<title>By: Scott Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/specific-rpgs/learning-from-the-classics-ultima-exodus/comment-page-1#comment-1739</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 16:27:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>The way you remember playing the game (several parties of PCs investigating the same world) reminds me of Ben Robbin&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;West Marches&lt;/a&gt; game. It&#039;d be interesting to see if you could work the cryptography in... though I can imagine one wall of a tavern covered with clues from all the adventuring parties who have been through the region. That&#039;d be a way that you could enjoy the puzzle solving without having to reset character knowledge to zero between games.  I like that thought...&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1739&#039;,&#039;Scott Martin&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The way you remember playing the game (several parties of PCs investigating the same world) reminds me of Ben Robbin&#8217;s <a href="http://arsludi.lamemage.com/index.php/78/grand-experiments-west-marches/" rel="nofollow">West Marches</a> game. It&#8217;d be interesting to see if you could work the cryptography in&#8230; though I can imagine one wall of a tavern covered with clues from all the adventuring parties who have been through the region. That&#8217;d be a way that you could enjoy the puzzle solving without having to reset character knowledge to zero between games.  I like that thought&#8230;
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		<title>By: Airk</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/specific-rpgs/learning-from-the-classics-ultima-exodus/comment-page-1#comment-1734</link>
		<dc:creator>Airk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 11 Aug 2008 14:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=662#comment-1734</guid>
		<description>At risk of derailing this a bit, I&#039;m going to point out that the title linked above is the Nintendo Entertainment System port of the original Ultima 3: Exodus and that, as best as I can tell, it radically alters some of the basic game systems.   While the &quot;plot&quot; of the game and many of the mechanics are the same, it seems like the rapidly increasing power of monsters as you level is a &quot;feature&quot; of the NES version. 

Mostly though, it&#039;s a game full of interesting ideas, and a whole lot of what they call &quot;Nintendo hard&quot;.  Which is to say, rough, honest challenge where the game pulls no punches.  Most folks won&#039;t want to run their tabletop that way, though some people will.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1734&#039;,&#039;Airk&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At risk of derailing this a bit, I&#8217;m going to point out that the title linked above is the Nintendo Entertainment System port of the original Ultima 3: Exodus and that, as best as I can tell, it radically alters some of the basic game systems.   While the &#8220;plot&#8221; of the game and many of the mechanics are the same, it seems like the rapidly increasing power of monsters as you level is a &#8220;feature&#8221; of the NES version. </p>
<p>Mostly though, it&#8217;s a game full of interesting ideas, and a whole lot of what they call &#8220;Nintendo hard&#8221;.  Which is to say, rough, honest challenge where the game pulls no punches.  Most folks won&#8217;t want to run their tabletop that way, though some people will.
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		<title>By: Tally</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/specific-rpgs/learning-from-the-classics-ultima-exodus/comment-page-1#comment-1731</link>
		<dc:creator>Tally</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 17:05:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=662#comment-1731</guid>
		<description>I remember playing this game as a kid!  I must&#039;ve only been eight or nine when I picked it up; it was the first RPG I ever played.   I remember well the adventures of AAA the Fighter, Bob the Barbarian, Tim the Thief, and Naomi the Lark. (I have no clue where that inspiration for the last name came from.)   I never entered the dungeons; those green and yellow pseudo-3d corridors with goblins and bandits were way too scary.  I never leveled up; too many monsters appeared.  And I never opened treasure chests, because there might&#039;ve been traps inside, and I didn&#039;t know that the thief could open trapped chests, or that a cleric could heal people.

Which makes me wonder just what I was doing in that game when I was nine years old.  I think I spent most of my time trying to find the city of Dawn, because I loved the idea of a hidden city.

I went back when I was in high school to play the game again, and oddly enough, it seemed even more difficult in high school then it did when I was a kid.  I guess when I played as a kid, I never leveled up, so the monsters stayed easy.

Anyways, that was a nice nostalgia trip!  I suppose the biggest thing that appealed to me about Ultima was the exploration; there&#039;s always someplace new, and interesting, to go to.  Each city had something different or special about it, and that&#039;s an idea I&#039;d like to take back to my DnD game.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1731&#039;,&#039;Tally&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember playing this game as a kid!  I must&#8217;ve only been eight or nine when I picked it up; it was the first RPG I ever played.   I remember well the adventures of AAA the Fighter, Bob the Barbarian, Tim the Thief, and Naomi the Lark. (I have no clue where that inspiration for the last name came from.)   I never entered the dungeons; those green and yellow pseudo-3d corridors with goblins and bandits were way too scary.  I never leveled up; too many monsters appeared.  And I never opened treasure chests, because there might&#8217;ve been traps inside, and I didn&#8217;t know that the thief could open trapped chests, or that a cleric could heal people.</p>
<p>Which makes me wonder just what I was doing in that game when I was nine years old.  I think I spent most of my time trying to find the city of Dawn, because I loved the idea of a hidden city.</p>
<p>I went back when I was in high school to play the game again, and oddly enough, it seemed even more difficult in high school then it did when I was a kid.  I guess when I played as a kid, I never leveled up, so the monsters stayed easy.</p>
<p>Anyways, that was a nice nostalgia trip!  I suppose the biggest thing that appealed to me about Ultima was the exploration; there&#8217;s always someplace new, and interesting, to go to.  Each city had something different or special about it, and that&#8217;s an idea I&#8217;d like to take back to my DnD game.
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		<title>By: LesInk</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/specific-rpgs/learning-from-the-classics-ultima-exodus/comment-page-1#comment-1730</link>
		<dc:creator>LesInk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 16:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=662#comment-1730</guid>
		<description>I&#039;ll try to stay on topic concerning balance and clarity since you have brought up one of my favorite (past) games.  My experience, however, was with the C64 version and I spent even more time with Ultima IV than Ultima III so there may be some differences.  It sounds like Ultima III on the C64 was easier than the NES since I was able to win the game without using exploits.

As for balance, yes, the game got harder and harder as you played and got better.  In short, it was almost counter intuitive -- you were penalized for doing better.  I guess the concept to be learned here is power is relative.  If you keep making it harder on the players, it will make them feel like they are going backward, not forward.  I would actually recommend a GM occassionally bring back a previous tough combat (redress it a bit) and have the players square off on it once again to help them realize how much they have improved.

As for clarity, yes, Exodus was hard to follow.  You had to keep a notebook of all the clues you received and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle.  Although tedius, I see this as just a method to keep the players moving from city to city looking for more clues.  Obviously, having all the clues in a cheat book or walkthrough makes this much easier.  I think what we can learn about clarity is to keep your clues more localized.  Ultima was maddening on how you would get one clue per town and spend an inordinate amount of time running in circles.  Some clue hunting is fine -- even the one stored in a lost temple on island in the middle of the ocean -- but try to keep most of them in smaller controllable regions.  It&#039;ll save your player&#039;s sanity and keep things moving along.  Also, I&#039;d recommend limiting the number of open threads at a time -- too many and the players may get confused.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1730&#039;,&#039;LesInk&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;ll try to stay on topic concerning balance and clarity since you have brought up one of my favorite (past) games.  My experience, however, was with the C64 version and I spent even more time with Ultima IV than Ultima III so there may be some differences.  It sounds like Ultima III on the C64 was easier than the NES since I was able to win the game without using exploits.</p>
<p>As for balance, yes, the game got harder and harder as you played and got better.  In short, it was almost counter intuitive &#8212; you were penalized for doing better.  I guess the concept to be learned here is power is relative.  If you keep making it harder on the players, it will make them feel like they are going backward, not forward.  I would actually recommend a GM occassionally bring back a previous tough combat (redress it a bit) and have the players square off on it once again to help them realize how much they have improved.</p>
<p>As for clarity, yes, Exodus was hard to follow.  You had to keep a notebook of all the clues you received and put them together like a jigsaw puzzle.  Although tedius, I see this as just a method to keep the players moving from city to city looking for more clues.  Obviously, having all the clues in a cheat book or walkthrough makes this much easier.  I think what we can learn about clarity is to keep your clues more localized.  Ultima was maddening on how you would get one clue per town and spend an inordinate amount of time running in circles.  Some clue hunting is fine &#8212; even the one stored in a lost temple on island in the middle of the ocean &#8212; but try to keep most of them in smaller controllable regions.  It&#8217;ll save your player&#8217;s sanity and keep things moving along.  Also, I&#8217;d recommend limiting the number of open threads at a time &#8212; too many and the players may get confused.
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		<title>By: greywulf</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/specific-rpgs/learning-from-the-classics-ultima-exodus/comment-page-1#comment-1727</link>
		<dc:creator>greywulf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 10 Aug 2008 14:21:03 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Well there goes my afternoon.

Darn you and your evil gnomish ways! :D&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;1727&#039;,&#039;greywulf&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well there goes my afternoon.</p>
<p>Darn you and your evil gnomish ways! <img src='http://www.gnomestew.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />
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