Comments on: Johnny’s Five – Five Reasons/Ways To Get Out of A Not fun Combat http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat The Game Mastering Blog Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:00:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Eric Wilde http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-8474 Eric Wilde Fri, 08 Jan 2010 21:11:14 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-8474 <a href='#comment-6985' rel="nofollow">@Nojo</a> - In the post as described, why wouldn't the mooks just run away? As Nojo brings up, morale failure seems appropriate here.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('8474','Eric Wilde'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @Nojo – In the post as described, why wouldn’t the mooks just run away? As Nojo brings up, morale failure seems appropriate here.
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]]> By: Storyteller http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-7197 Storyteller Sat, 29 Aug 2009 01:42:02 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-7197 Great post! Thanks for this! I've added it to my DM's Notebook :)<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('7197','Storyteller'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Great post! Thanks for this! I’ve added it to my DM’s Notebook :)
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]]> By: robosnake http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-7006 robosnake Sun, 16 Aug 2009 07:45:03 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-7006 I personally like to be more transparent about it, but I'm the kind of person who's allergic to DM screens :) I'd step back for a moment and say something like "You guys are really kicking ass, and you're going to win this fight. Let's focus on something really challenging. But first..." and then I'd ask if the players were ok with some narration, and then I'd go around the room and let everyone narrate their character's baddassery, let them loot and so on, and maybe say that in the remaining fight everyone lost 5 more hit points. Once its clear that a combat, or *any* scene, isn't fun anymore, I personally want to drop it as quickly as I can and move on to something fun. And, next time, while planning, I take what happened into account and maybe cut out the minor "trash" fights, just focusing on the big bad. Which reminds me - I'd *love* it if D&D had a system for rolling through minor threats in a narrative fashion, so every room-full of mooks doesn't necessitate rolling initiative, rolling out the battle mat, and so on... Maybe I'll have to come up with one. Thoughts?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('7006','robosnake'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> I personally like to be more transparent about it, but I’m the kind of person who’s allergic to DM screens :)

I’d step back for a moment and say something like “You guys are really kicking ass, and you’re going to win this fight. Let’s focus on something really challenging. But first…” and then I’d ask if the players were ok with some narration, and then I’d go around the room and let everyone narrate their character’s baddassery, let them loot and so on, and maybe say that in the remaining fight everyone lost 5 more hit points.

Once its clear that a combat, or *any* scene, isn’t fun anymore, I personally want to drop it as quickly as I can and move on to something fun. And, next time, while planning, I take what happened into account and maybe cut out the minor “trash” fights, just focusing on the big bad.

Which reminds me – I’d *love* it if D&D had a system for rolling through minor threats in a narrative fashion, so every room-full of mooks doesn’t necessitate rolling initiative, rolling out the battle mat, and so on…

Maybe I’ll have to come up with one. Thoughts?

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]]> By: Swordgleam http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-7001 Swordgleam Fri, 14 Aug 2009 01:13:20 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-7001 @Protohacker: Wushu has barely any crunch at all, and combat is very survivable for the heroes. Each hero gets 3 chi, and against a mob, it's assumed the mob only gets one hit (worth one chi) in per round. That's one hit, IF the hero chooses not to even try and block it. Boss badguys are more dangerous, but there's usually only one of them.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('7001','Swordgleam'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @Protohacker: Wushu has barely any crunch at all, and combat is very survivable for the heroes. Each hero gets 3 chi, and against a mob, it’s assumed the mob only gets one hit (worth one chi) in per round. That’s one hit, IF the hero chooses not to even try and block it. Boss badguys are more dangerous, but there’s usually only one of them.
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]]> By: Protohacker http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6990 Protohacker Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:55:10 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6990 <a href='#comment-6989' rel="nofollow">@Swordgleam</a> - Thanks for the idea. That (sort of) was one of the options we discussed. I gave them the choice of using Serenity for the combat (they didn't like that idea much; Serenity is pretty lethal). Our problem was that in our Chaos Earth game, everyone has great armor, but not great weapons. So, combat frequently devolved into a pop-gun contest. They didn't want me evening out the weapon vs armor (they like being able to survive), so we are trying to come up with other options. Would Wushu help with this?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6990','Protohacker'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @Swordgleam – Thanks for the idea.

That (sort of) was one of the options we discussed. I gave them the choice of using Serenity for the combat (they didn’t like that idea much; Serenity is pretty lethal).

Our problem was that in our Chaos Earth game, everyone has great armor, but not great weapons. So, combat frequently devolved into a pop-gun contest. They didn’t want me evening out the weapon vs armor (they like being able to survive), so we are trying to come up with other options.

Would Wushu help with this?

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]]> By: Swordgleam http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6989 Swordgleam Wed, 12 Aug 2009 22:28:48 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6989 Instead of narrating things, why not switch to a system like Wushu for the second half of the combat? This admittedly will only work with some groups, but it's a system where how effective you are depends on the quality (well, quantity) of your narration. It can spice up boring fights in a hurry when suddenly vaulting onto the worg's back and stabbing it in the ear deals /more/ damage than "I hit it with my sword."<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6989','Swordgleam'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Instead of narrating things, why not switch to a system like Wushu for the second half of the combat? This admittedly will only work with some groups, but it’s a system where how effective you are depends on the quality (well, quantity) of your narration. It can spice up boring fights in a hurry when suddenly vaulting onto the worg’s back and stabbing it in the ear deals /more/ damage than “I hit it with my sword.”
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]]> By: Protohacker http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6988 Protohacker Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:51:51 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6988 <a href='#comment-6979' rel="nofollow">@deadlytoque</a> - Obviously, you didn't read my last point. We talked this out as a group. They were okay with it. If a group's not okay with it, you don't do it. That simple.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6988','Protohacker'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @deadlytoque –

Obviously, you didn’t read my last point. We talked this out as a group. They were okay with it. If a group’s not okay with it, you don’t do it. That simple.

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]]> By: Nicholas http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6987 Nicholas Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:09:58 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6987 I'll cut hit points and defenses on the sly if things start to drag. If a fight drags too much or I think it is not worth rolling out I just take it to narration.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6987','Nicholas'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> I’ll cut hit points and defenses on the sly if things start to drag. If a fight drags too much or I think it is not worth rolling out I just take it to narration.
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]]> By: wampuscat43 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6986 wampuscat43 Wed, 12 Aug 2009 17:32:00 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6986 I've started using morale failure as well, only to find out that the players don't want to give up the chase. One of them has a shapeshifter power that lets him turn into a wolf that can outrun a horse. I'm going to have to 'discourage' that - the rest just get left behind, and complain about it later.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6986','wampuscat43'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> I’ve started using morale failure as well, only to find out that the players don’t want to give up the chase. One of them has a shapeshifter power that lets him turn into a wolf that can outrun a horse. I’m going to have to ‘discourage’ that – the rest just get left behind, and complain about it later.
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]]> By: Nojo http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6985 Nojo Wed, 12 Aug 2009 16:48:12 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6985 Exit Stage Left: Morale failure is a great way to end the combat. If you have time, I like to build up to it. If you have a bunch of baddies, have a few of them start to falter, go defensive, and back away toward the exits. The next round add more, and let a few just panic, dropping their weapons and running. The round after that, it's a full on rout. If the players are invested in killing one hated opponent, you can leave them on the table, cursing the cowards who are fleeing, and selling himself dearly as the players focus their efforts on him.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6985','Nojo'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Exit Stage Left: Morale failure is a great way to end the combat. If you have time, I like to build up to it. If you have a bunch of baddies, have a few of them start to falter, go defensive, and back away toward the exits. The next round add more, and let a few just panic, dropping their weapons and running. The round after that, it’s a full on rout. If the players are invested in killing one hated opponent, you can leave them on the table, cursing the cowards who are fleeing, and selling himself dearly as the players focus their efforts on him.
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]]> By: Rafe http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6984 Rafe Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:41:14 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6984 Options 2, 3, 4 and 6 are pretty much the same thing, I think. They all come down to tweaking the encounter, and they're the best options, I think. This cool fight on a rope bridge has gotten boring? The rope bridge snaps. Now the fight's over, but there's an obstacle to overcome. Fighting in a room that seems mundane, and the fight's getting boring? The doors suddenly seal and the monsters disengage and try to break down the doors. Their panic and fear ought to indicate that <i>something wicked this way comes</i>... a trap being triggered is a good one. The enemies can be cut down with hand-waving and the trap must now be dealt with, or some big baddie is about to enter the scene. I don't think miscalculation, as noted, is too great a tool to use.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6984','Rafe'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Options 2, 3, 4 and 6 are pretty much the same thing, I think. They all come down to tweaking the encounter, and they’re the best options, I think. This cool fight on a rope bridge has gotten boring? The rope bridge snaps. Now the fight’s over, but there’s an obstacle to overcome. Fighting in a room that seems mundane, and the fight’s getting boring? The doors suddenly seal and the monsters disengage and try to break down the doors. Their panic and fear ought to indicate that something wicked this way comes… a trap being triggered is a good one. The enemies can be cut down with hand-waving and the trap must now be dealt with, or some big baddie is about to enter the scene.

I don’t think miscalculation, as noted, is too great a tool to use.

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]]> By: Scott Martin http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6983 Scott Martin Wed, 12 Aug 2009 15:36:16 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6983 It's so very easy to get sucked into detailed combats and just keep going, even when it's not fun. I had that experience a few months ago, and wrote about it in <a href="http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/pacing-and-transitions" rel="nofollow">pacing and transitions</a>.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6983','Scott Martin'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> It’s so very easy to get sucked into detailed combats and just keep going, even when it’s not fun. I had that experience a few months ago, and wrote about it in pacing and transitions.
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]]> By: deadlytoque http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6979 deadlytoque Wed, 12 Aug 2009 14:54:16 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6979 @ Protohacker: I'd never, ever recommend narrating the rest of the fight to the players. If you're going to go that route, let them do the narrating, and only if you're sure they want to (ie ask them). @John: your list is solid. Now can you go back in time? I need you to tell my old DM how to spot when his players aren't having fun (having side conversations, playing games on cellphones) so that he doesn't run an 8-hour combat that causes me to give up his game in disgust.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6979','deadlytoque'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @ Protohacker: I’d never, ever recommend narrating the rest of the fight to the players. If you’re going to go that route, let them do the narrating, and only if you’re sure they want to (ie ask them).

@John: your list is solid. Now can you go back in time? I need you to tell my old DM how to spot when his players aren’t having fun (having side conversations, playing games on cellphones) so that he doesn’t run an 8-hour combat that causes me to give up his game in disgust.

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]]> By: Protohacker http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-a-not-fun-combat/comment-page-1#comment-6974 Protohacker Wed, 12 Aug 2009 09:02:37 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/johnnys-five/johnnys-five-five-reasonsways-to-get-out-of-an-not-fun-combat#comment-6974 Good suggestions, but I had a GM once cut off a boring combat in the middle by introducing another group to help us out. I have to admit I felt cheated of my kill. So, when I was the GM and the combat started to drag, I'd roll about half the combat, them describe the other half to the players. There are some things I learned doing this, though. First, players like combat for the cool, Matrix moves they can do. Combat needs to go on long enough that they get their chance for something really cool. Second, the combat needs to go on long enough that everyone knows what the outcome would be. It's generally pretty obvious by about halfway through whether the good guys or the bad guys will succeed and how they do it. So, after everyone figured out what would happen, I stopped rolling and just described the rest. Third, I wouldn't recommend this for a new group. I did this only with an established group and only after we had talked the situation over. The players had been involved with each other long enough that they knew what they could do, so it wasn't necessary to act it out every time. For that reason, they were okay with me cutting the rolls short and just describing the final outcome.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('6974','Protohacker'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Good suggestions, but I had a GM once cut off a boring combat in the middle by introducing another group to help us out. I have to admit I felt cheated of my kill.

So, when I was the GM and the combat started to drag, I’d roll about half the combat, them describe the other half to the players. There are some things I learned doing this, though.

First, players like combat for the cool, Matrix moves they can do. Combat needs to go on long enough that they get their chance for something really cool.

Second, the combat needs to go on long enough that everyone knows what the outcome would be. It’s generally pretty obvious by about halfway through whether the good guys or the bad guys will succeed and how they do it. So, after everyone figured out what would happen, I stopped rolling and just described the rest.

Third, I wouldn’t recommend this for a new group. I did this only with an established group and only after we had talked the situation over. The players had been involved with each other long enough that they knew what they could do, so it wasn’t necessary to act it out every time. For that reason, they were okay with me cutting the rolls short and just describing the final outcome.

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