Comments on: D&D Burgoo (4.0): Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons The Game Mastering Blog Sat, 11 Feb 2012 00:00:43 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.1 By: Nojo http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-12040 Nojo Thu, 17 Feb 2011 21:26:19 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-12040 LOL, I was searching for information on making exploration and discovery fun, and found this mention of Discovery Charts. I bought this adventure just to check out the charts. Silly me. There are two charts, one for random clues/junk found in abandoned huts, the other for different random clues/junk found in inhabited huts. Not as revolutionary as I had hoped.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('12040','Nojo'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> LOL, I was searching for information on making exploration and discovery fun, and found this mention of Discovery Charts.

I bought this adventure just to check out the charts. Silly me.

There are two charts, one for random clues/junk found in abandoned huts, the other for different random clues/junk found in inhabited huts.

Not as revolutionary as I had hoped.

Reply
]]> By: troy812 http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4645 troy812 Thu, 05 Mar 2009 16:26:30 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4645 I love Goodman Games. The really make some of the best stuff out there.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4645','troy812'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> I love Goodman Games. The really make some of the best stuff out there.
Reply
]]> By: » Chatty’s Preview: Master Dungeons H2, Curse of the Kingspire http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4386 » Chatty’s Preview: Master Dungeons H2, Curse of the Kingspire Wed, 04 Mar 2009 14:13:08 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4386 [...] Gnome Stew: Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons [...]<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4386','» Chatty’s Preview: Master Dungeons H2, Curse of the Kingspire'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> [...] Gnome Stew: Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons [...]
Reply
]]> By: Noumenon http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4311 Noumenon Sat, 28 Feb 2009 08:47:43 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4311 The Delve thing needed to be explained. It looks good on paper. But even with all that crap written out there's still stuff like "takes 50% more damage from area effects" and "no critical hits" that is hidden within stuff like "swarm traits". It goes to show the amount of information it would take to truly DM even one encounter in D&D 3.5 is just staggering. I make little 3x5 cards and look up the rules for every attack and trait and spell ahead of time, but I really can't see how they expect people to run games by the rules as written.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4311','Noumenon'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> The Delve thing needed to be explained.

It looks good on paper. But even with all that crap written out there’s still stuff like “takes 50% more damage from area effects” and “no critical hits” that is hidden within stuff like “swarm traits”. It goes to show the amount of information it would take to truly DM even one encounter in D&D 3.5 is just staggering. I make little 3×5 cards and look up the rules for every attack and trait and spell ahead of time, but I really can’t see how they expect people to run games by the rules as written.

Reply
]]> By: Master Dungeons M2: Curse of the Kingspire | Game Cryer http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4310 Master Dungeons M2: Curse of the Kingspire | Game Cryer Fri, 27 Feb 2009 23:13:28 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4310 [...] Gnome Stew: Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons [...]<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4310','Master Dungeons M2: Curse of the Kingspire | Game Cryer'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> [...] Gnome Stew: Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons [...]
Reply
]]> By: The Plot Thickens - Hooking Players Into Adventures | Campaign Mastery http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4308 The Plot Thickens - Hooking Players Into Adventures | Campaign Mastery Fri, 27 Feb 2009 20:22:02 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4308 [...] Gnome Stew: Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons [...]<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4308','The Plot Thickens - Hooking Players Into Adventures | Campaign Mastery'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> [...] Gnome Stew: Mastering Goodman’s Dungeons [...]
Reply
]]> By: Kurt "Telas" Schneider http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4307 Kurt "Telas" Schneider Fri, 27 Feb 2009 18:31:47 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4307 I haven't read the adventures in question, and Goodman's been an old-school publishing house for quite a while, but Dragora is pushing the limits a bit on <a href="http://www.goodman-games.com/images/GMG5301CoverLarge.jpg" rel="nofollow">that cover</a>... That said, most of Goodman's stuff to date has been excellent. I will have to check these out.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4307','Kurt \"Telas\" Schneider'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> I haven’t read the adventures in question, and Goodman’s been an old-school publishing house for quite a while, but Dragora is pushing the limits a bit on that cover…

That said, most of Goodman’s stuff to date has been excellent. I will have to check these out.

Reply
]]> By: Troy E. Taylor http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4305 Troy E. Taylor Fri, 27 Feb 2009 17:16:31 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4305 <a href='#comment-4304' rel="nofollow">@deadlytoque</a> - Gladly. Basically, it's a format that confines an encounter — and only one encounter — to one page or two facing pages. The layout is such that a DM need not do any page flipping and that everything needed to run the encounter, from maps to monster stats to area features, are all on this page. The delve format was developed by David Noonan and others at Wizards of the Coast late in the life cycle of the 3.5 rules. The article here describes the process used in developing it. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060317a Now, if you have the 4.0 DMG, you have an example of the delve format in Chapter 11 with the description of the kobold hall encounters. If you are a third edition player, this page has download links to a preview of a delve format used for third edition rules. http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20070904a And if you poke around the Wizards site you can find other examples as part of the previews offered for adventure products after 2006. Designers are divided on the format. No one disputes that in running an encounter, DMs benefit by having everything laid out clearly before them. The argument usually comes down to two points: 1) Is the benefit to the DM worth the additional space devoted to it? 2) The "one-size-fits-all" aspect of the delve means that encounters have to be written to the confines of the format, they must be one- or two-page encounters, when if written "magazine style" might take up far less/far more space. But these are production concerns, not DM issues. As a DM, my concerns with the delve are more practical. As Wizards uses it, the outline for the entire adventure, including all non-combat encounters, are place in one section, and then all the delve encounters are grouped in another. And so, the page flipping the delve is meant to reduce, is actually exacerbated as you transition from the adventure text to the individual encounters. For some, this isn't a problem. For others, it can be disruptive.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4305','Troy E. Taylor'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @deadlytoque –
Gladly. Basically, it’s a format that confines an encounter — and only one encounter — to one page or two facing pages. The layout is such that a DM need not do any page flipping and that everything needed to run the encounter, from maps to monster stats to area features, are all on this page.
The delve format was developed by David Noonan and others at Wizards of the Coast late in the life cycle of the 3.5 rules. The article here describes the process used in developing it.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/dd/20060317a
Now, if you have the 4.0 DMG, you have an example of the delve format in Chapter 11 with the description of the kobold hall encounters. If you are a third edition player, this page has download links to a preview of a delve format used for third edition rules.
http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/4ex/20070904a
And if you poke around the Wizards site you can find other examples as part of the previews offered for adventure products after 2006.
Designers are divided on the format. No one disputes that in running an encounter, DMs benefit by having everything laid out clearly before them.
The argument usually comes down to two points: 1) Is the benefit to the DM worth the additional space devoted to it? 2) The “one-size-fits-all” aspect of the delve means that encounters have to be written to the confines of the format, they must be one- or two-page encounters, when if written “magazine style” might take up far less/far more space. But these are production concerns, not DM issues.
As a DM, my concerns with the delve are more practical. As Wizards uses it, the outline for the entire adventure, including all non-combat encounters, are place in one section, and then all the delve encounters are grouped in another. And so, the page flipping the delve is meant to reduce, is actually exacerbated as you transition from the adventure text to the individual encounters. For some, this isn’t a problem. For others, it can be disruptive.
Reply
]]> By: deadlytoque http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4304 deadlytoque Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:48:21 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4304 Can someone fill me in on what the "Delve layout" is? I never buy modules, so I'm curious. Might be worth picking up a few to cannibalize their format.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4304','deadlytoque'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Can someone fill me in on what the “Delve layout” is? I never buy modules, so I’m curious. Might be worth picking up a few to cannibalize their format.
Reply
]]> By: Troy E. Taylor http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4303 Troy E. Taylor Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:44:22 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4303 <a href='#comment-4300' rel="nofollow">@Patrick Benson</a> - You mean the Blackberry doesn't fit our gnome-sized fingers?<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4303','Troy E. Taylor'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> @Patrick Benson – You mean the Blackberry doesn’t fit our gnome-sized fingers?
Reply
]]> By: Patrick Benson http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4300 Patrick Benson Fri, 27 Feb 2009 16:00:15 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4300 And I apologize for the many typos on that last comment. It is difficult to write on a BlackBerry. :)<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4300','Patrick Benson'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> And I apologize for the many typos on that last comment. It is difficult to write on a BlackBerry. :)
Reply
]]> By: Patrick Benson http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4299 Patrick Benson Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:56:31 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4299 I must disagree about one of these products. I bought and read "Dragora's Dungeons" and I found it to be just a viscious dungeon crawl. Yes, if the players role play and treat problems as diplomatic issues their characters mgiht complete the module, but overall I found the product to be just a bad "Planet of the Apes" meets D&D 4e adventure. Doing the math I thought that the damage a single encounter might cause was way too high for the level of the PCs, and the feel of the adventure was that it was a railroad. I've bought a lot of Goodman Games stuff lately, but I was really disappointed with this product. It isn't for experienced GMs, it needs and experienced Gm to tweak it so that it is actually playable. It is just a long series of "Guess what PC? Your fucked! Isn't this fun!" type moments. This is my opinion, but I expected a much more balanced adventure and a far better storyline. And the near pornographic cover art is just ridiculous. Dragora looks like she is about to accept an AVN award. I have no problem with scantily clad women, but I don't need my gaming gear to appear like it was written for a 13 year old boy's sexual fantasy. Experienced GMs wonder why the cover doesn't hint at the true nature of the adventure - a power struggle amongst three tribes of viscious species. But then again, the adventure doesn't even cover that very well either. I have no idea if the second adventure in the series is good or bad. I'm just sharing how I felt after reading the first one.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4299','Patrick Benson'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> I must disagree about one of these products. I bought and read “Dragora’s Dungeons” and I found it to be just a viscious dungeon crawl. Yes, if the players role play and treat problems as diplomatic issues their characters mgiht complete the module, but overall I found the product to be just a bad “Planet of the Apes” meets D&D 4e adventure. Doing the math I thought that the damage a single encounter might cause was way too high for the level of the PCs, and the feel of the adventure was that it was a railroad.

I’ve bought a lot of Goodman Games stuff lately, but I was really disappointed with this product. It isn’t for experienced GMs, it needs and experienced Gm to tweak it so that it is actually playable. It is just a long series of “Guess what PC? Your fucked! Isn’t this fun!” type moments. This is my opinion, but I expected a much more balanced adventure and a far better storyline.

And the near pornographic cover art is just ridiculous. Dragora looks like she is about to accept an AVN award. I have no problem with scantily clad women, but I don’t need my gaming gear to appear like it was written for a 13 year old boy’s sexual fantasy. Experienced GMs wonder why the cover doesn’t hint at the true nature of the adventure – a power struggle amongst three tribes of viscious species. But then again, the adventure doesn’t even cover that very well either.

I have no idea if the second adventure in the series is good or bad. I’m just sharing how I felt after reading the first one.

Reply
]]> By: Balam Shimoda http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/dd-burgoo-40-mastering-goodmans-dungeons/comment-page-1#comment-4297 Balam Shimoda Fri, 27 Feb 2009 15:05:10 +0000 http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=2539#comment-4297 Author Harley Stroh is a regular Guest of Honor at Denver-area role-playing conventions Tacticon and Genghis Con. He's also just a really fun guy to hang out and talk to, and a great GM. I won't name names, but I've met living proof that just because you can write a game doesn't mean you can bring it to life at the table.<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('4297','Balam Shimoda'); return false;">Reply</a> </div> Author Harley Stroh is a regular Guest of Honor at Denver-area role-playing conventions Tacticon and Genghis Con. He’s also just a really fun guy to hang out and talk to, and a great GM. I won’t name names, but I’ve met living proof that just because you can write a game doesn’t mean you can bring it to life at the table.
Reply
]]>