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	<title>Comments on: Compensating for Failure</title>
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		<title>By: Swordgleam</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/compensating-for-failure/comment-page-1#comment-2305</link>
		<dc:creator>Swordgleam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 23:06:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=1160#comment-2305</guid>
		<description>I think the greatest failure I&#039;ve ever been involved in as a player was when three PCs and an NPC walked (well, got teleported) into some ice caves, and only one of them made it out alive. Our assassin came back as an utterly messed-up ghost, my character, as far as we can tell, got resurrected by the lizard god, and the healer, our only surviving party member, was completely traumatized.

I don&#039;t really think there was anything the GM could have done to stop that one. We never once followed her plots as she expected, and the ice caves were certainly no exception. It definitely built a better story than &quot;kill the lizards, save the NPC, clear your names, go on to do something else&quot; could ever have done. After all, we had to go tell the assassin&#039;s family that she was dead, and that in itself was a whole story arc. 

We certainly made a lot of bad tactical decisions in that encounter, but we were all playing our characters. The assassin was smart, but lacked common sense, so repeatedly firing a jammed gun full of explosive ammo until it blows up in her face is something she would do. The healer would freak out and be unable to accomplish anything after being covered in pieces of her friend. My character was intensely loyal and didn&#039;t care much for her own life, so she would throw away her only chance of survival to avenge her friend. 

I wouldn&#039;t say any of us cheered for it to happen, but that failure made a far better story than our success ever could have. (And the assassin&#039;s family wasn&#039;t as upset about it as one would think.)&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2305&#039;,&#039;Swordgleam&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think the greatest failure I&#8217;ve ever been involved in as a player was when three PCs and an NPC walked (well, got teleported) into some ice caves, and only one of them made it out alive. Our assassin came back as an utterly messed-up ghost, my character, as far as we can tell, got resurrected by the lizard god, and the healer, our only surviving party member, was completely traumatized.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t really think there was anything the GM could have done to stop that one. We never once followed her plots as she expected, and the ice caves were certainly no exception. It definitely built a better story than &#8220;kill the lizards, save the NPC, clear your names, go on to do something else&#8221; could ever have done. After all, we had to go tell the assassin&#8217;s family that she was dead, and that in itself was a whole story arc. </p>
<p>We certainly made a lot of bad tactical decisions in that encounter, but we were all playing our characters. The assassin was smart, but lacked common sense, so repeatedly firing a jammed gun full of explosive ammo until it blows up in her face is something she would do. The healer would freak out and be unable to accomplish anything after being covered in pieces of her friend. My character was intensely loyal and didn&#8217;t care much for her own life, so she would throw away her only chance of survival to avenge her friend. </p>
<p>I wouldn&#8217;t say any of us cheered for it to happen, but that failure made a far better story than our success ever could have. (And the assassin&#8217;s family wasn&#8217;t as upset about it as one would think.)
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2305','Swordgleam'); return false;">Reply</a> </div>
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		<title>By: Scott Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/compensating-for-failure/comment-page-1#comment-2300</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=1160#comment-2300</guid>
		<description>Itliaf: Tell me about a cool part about one of those sessions. Was there a failure that a player cheered, despite their PC hating the event? I know that it can be hard to ever step back from cheering your characters on to victory after victory; I&#039;ve caught myself getting sullen when the dice turn against my poor PC.

Telas: I agree that criticism is necessary-- particularly when flowery language leads you to believe play will alter in X way, and it turns out that your players actually react entirely differently. I know that even when I go into a new game with an experimental/try the mechanics mindset, it&#039;s still hard not to fall back on habit: victory good!

Karizma: I&#039;ve always enjoyed seeing where the story goes; that&#039;s one reason that Prestige Classes and other paths that require planning in advance don&#039;t appeal to me as much as a player. I&#039;d rather react organically to the events of the session... and bonding to horses and an air elemental sounds like a great journey for your PC.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2300&#039;,&#039;Scott Martin&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Itliaf: Tell me about a cool part about one of those sessions. Was there a failure that a player cheered, despite their PC hating the event? I know that it can be hard to ever step back from cheering your characters on to victory after victory; I&#8217;ve caught myself getting sullen when the dice turn against my poor PC.</p>
<p>Telas: I agree that criticism is necessary&#8211; particularly when flowery language leads you to believe play will alter in X way, and it turns out that your players actually react entirely differently. I know that even when I go into a new game with an experimental/try the mechanics mindset, it&#8217;s still hard not to fall back on habit: victory good!</p>
<p>Karizma: I&#8217;ve always enjoyed seeing where the story goes; that&#8217;s one reason that Prestige Classes and other paths that require planning in advance don&#8217;t appeal to me as much as a player. I&#8217;d rather react organically to the events of the session&#8230; and bonding to horses and an air elemental sounds like a great journey for your PC.
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		<title>By: Karizma</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/compensating-for-failure/comment-page-1#comment-2298</link>
		<dc:creator>Karizma</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 15:15:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=1160#comment-2298</guid>
		<description>Once I plaid under a very story-oriented GM, and my first-level bard did a lot of failing at performing at first.  I blamed it on my complete alienation from the world I was in (the GM had all our characters zapped from whatever fantasy plane/world we dwelt into his), and something interesting happened, my bard began to grow a bond with horses, in an almost druidic fashion.
My initial failures as a stereotypical silver-tongued bard ended up giving him--in a strange twist of fate--bond with an air elemental.
That&#039;s when I realized that good gaming isn&#039;t as clear cut as accomplishing goal X, but touching A through Z in the process.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2298&#039;,&#039;Karizma&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Once I plaid under a very story-oriented GM, and my first-level bard did a lot of failing at performing at first.  I blamed it on my complete alienation from the world I was in (the GM had all our characters zapped from whatever fantasy plane/world we dwelt into his), and something interesting happened, my bard began to grow a bond with horses, in an almost druidic fashion.<br />
My initial failures as a stereotypical silver-tongued bard ended up giving him&#8211;in a strange twist of fate&#8211;bond with an air elemental.<br />
That&#8217;s when I realized that good gaming isn&#8217;t as clear cut as accomplishing goal X, but touching A through Z in the process.
<div class="comment-remix-meta"><a href="#" class="replyto" onclick="replyto('2298','Karizma'); return false;">Reply</a> </div>
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		<title>By: Kurt "Telas" Schneider</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/compensating-for-failure/comment-page-1#comment-2297</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt "Telas" Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:13:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=1160#comment-2297</guid>
		<description>I file this type of article/thinking under &quot;Research and Development&quot;.  It&#039;s necessary, but it takes a lot of work, and a lot of failures to get something good out of it.

I&#039;m not ready to start making large fundamental shifts in my gaming style; after all, it&#039;s working for me and my group.  (Caveat: As a new father, I&#039;m not running a game right now.)  

But this kind of experimentation is &lt;i&gt;absolutely necessary&lt;/i&gt; to the hobby.  Mainstream games have picked up on many of the elements that indie/cutting edge games introduced &#039;back then&#039;. (Action Points, etc), and will continue to do so.  I&#039;ve given The Forge and company a lot of (IMHO, well-earned) grief for over-thinking and over-engineering gaming, and especially for mistaking game theory for actual gaming, but the R&amp;D that they do is very important to the hobby.  

R&amp;D is like mining - you&#039;ve got to go through a lot of useless stuff to get to those few diamonds that makes it all worthwhile.  And, as with mining, your customers really don&#039;t want to do all that digging with you; they just want the finished product.  (As an added bit of self-justification, criticism is also necessary to the process.)&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2297&#039;,&#039;Kurt \&quot;Telas\&quot; Schneider&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I file this type of article/thinking under &#8220;Research and Development&#8221;.  It&#8217;s necessary, but it takes a lot of work, and a lot of failures to get something good out of it.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not ready to start making large fundamental shifts in my gaming style; after all, it&#8217;s working for me and my group.  (Caveat: As a new father, I&#8217;m not running a game right now.)  </p>
<p>But this kind of experimentation is <i>absolutely necessary</i> to the hobby.  Mainstream games have picked up on many of the elements that indie/cutting edge games introduced &#8216;back then&#8217;. (Action Points, etc), and will continue to do so.  I&#8217;ve given The Forge and company a lot of (IMHO, well-earned) grief for over-thinking and over-engineering gaming, and especially for mistaking game theory for actual gaming, but the R&amp;D that they do is very important to the hobby.  </p>
<p>R&amp;D is like mining &#8211; you&#8217;ve got to go through a lot of useless stuff to get to those few diamonds that makes it all worthwhile.  And, as with mining, your customers really don&#8217;t want to do all that digging with you; they just want the finished product.  (As an added bit of self-justification, criticism is also necessary to the process.)
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		<title>By: itliaf</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/compensating-for-failure/comment-page-1#comment-2296</link>
		<dc:creator>itliaf</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 15 Sep 2008 13:36:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=1160#comment-2296</guid>
		<description>Great article Scott.
One of my favorite things about this blog is the way you guys can so smoothly synthesize a lot of the various ideas about RPGs floating about the internets to create a richer discussion. 
Just before the first post in this series, I ran some very satisfying gmaes taking the approach toward prep and views of failure that Heather, Fang, DitV and others have espoused.   It&#039;s nice to know that there&#039;s a whole community of people gaming like this, and that I can continue to view failure by my players as (to quote the Lard) &quot;crisitunities.&quot;
Also, that temptation gambit is extremely, well, tempting.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;2296&#039;,&#039;itliaf&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article Scott.<br />
One of my favorite things about this blog is the way you guys can so smoothly synthesize a lot of the various ideas about RPGs floating about the internets to create a richer discussion.<br />
Just before the first post in this series, I ran some very satisfying gmaes taking the approach toward prep and views of failure that Heather, Fang, DitV and others have espoused.   It&#8217;s nice to know that there&#8217;s a whole community of people gaming like this, and that I can continue to view failure by my players as (to quote the Lard) &#8220;crisitunities.&#8221;<br />
Also, that temptation gambit is extremely, well, tempting.
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