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	<title>Comments on: Character Fixes: Making Characters Enjoyable</title>
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		<title>By: Ravenous Role Playing &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Friday Five: 2009-12-11</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8302</link>
		<dc:creator>Ravenous Role Playing &#187; Blog Archive &#187; Friday Five: 2009-12-11</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Dec 2009 21:21:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=5487#comment-8302</guid>
		<description>[...] Character Fixes: Making Characters Enjoyable Scott, over at Gnome Stew, has four ways to make your characters more enjoyable to play. Go check them out! [...]&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8302&#039;,&#039;Ravenous Role Playing &raquo; Blog Archive &raquo; Friday Five: 2009-12-11&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Character Fixes: Making Characters Enjoyable Scott, over at Gnome Stew, has four ways to make your characters more enjoyable to play. Go check them out! [...]
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		<title>By: unwinder</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8261</link>
		<dc:creator>unwinder</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 Dec 2009 01:15:35 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have been playing a homebrew setting with nothing but completely custom classes for quite some time. It&#039;s sort of playtesting for some material that some friends of mine want to publish online, so tweaking characters is typically a must as we discover abilities that just aren&#039;t balanced. I&#039;ve had characters completely revamp their character sheet at level ten because they realized that their combat style wasn&#039;t very well supported by the current rules.

There are people who abuse this though. There&#039;s a big difference between not feeling like you&#039;re fitting into your character&#039;s combat role well enough and trying to find ways to maximize your character&#039;s effectiveness in combat. I&#039;ve said yes too many times in the past, and the result is that the players who tinker with their characters a lot are disproportionately powerful compared with the players who stick with every character decision they ever made.

That said, I am more than happy to let people edit the building blocks of their class. Rather have a strong willpower save than reflex? You got it. Rather boost your hit dice than have the high base attack bonus? No problem. Want to swap out some class skills for some other class skills? That&#039;s OK, but if you want to trade out skill X, you&#039;ll have to give up skill Y too. Are you sure you want that?&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8261&#039;,&#039;unwinder&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have been playing a homebrew setting with nothing but completely custom classes for quite some time. It&#8217;s sort of playtesting for some material that some friends of mine want to publish online, so tweaking characters is typically a must as we discover abilities that just aren&#8217;t balanced. I&#8217;ve had characters completely revamp their character sheet at level ten because they realized that their combat style wasn&#8217;t very well supported by the current rules.</p>
<p>There are people who abuse this though. There&#8217;s a big difference between not feeling like you&#8217;re fitting into your character&#8217;s combat role well enough and trying to find ways to maximize your character&#8217;s effectiveness in combat. I&#8217;ve said yes too many times in the past, and the result is that the players who tinker with their characters a lot are disproportionately powerful compared with the players who stick with every character decision they ever made.</p>
<p>That said, I am more than happy to let people edit the building blocks of their class. Rather have a strong willpower save than reflex? You got it. Rather boost your hit dice than have the high base attack bonus? No problem. Want to swap out some class skills for some other class skills? That&#8217;s OK, but if you want to trade out skill X, you&#8217;ll have to give up skill Y too. Are you sure you want that?
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		<title>By: Rafe</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8260</link>
		<dc:creator>Rafe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 23:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=5487#comment-8260</guid>
		<description>I encounter almost zero issues with the players&#039; characters in my campaign, mostly due to the system (Burning Wheel).  What you use, you advance.  Yes, you can &quot;screw up&quot; your initial skill allocation or pick lifepaths you might regret.  However, as soon as the characters start out, they&#039;re growing, and doing so organically based on the dictates of the players and what&#039;s happening.  As for overlap, it&#039;s often a good thing.  Three cheers for help dice!  :)

I guess you could say the system has built-in drift.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8260&#039;,&#039;Rafe&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I encounter almost zero issues with the players&#8217; characters in my campaign, mostly due to the system (Burning Wheel).  What you use, you advance.  Yes, you can &#8220;screw up&#8221; your initial skill allocation or pick lifepaths you might regret.  However, as soon as the characters start out, they&#8217;re growing, and doing so organically based on the dictates of the players and what&#8217;s happening.  As for overlap, it&#8217;s often a good thing.  Three cheers for help dice!  <img src='http://www.gnomestew.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>I guess you could say the system has built-in drift.
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		<title>By: Scott Martin</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8259</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott Martin</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:36:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=5487#comment-8259</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-8255&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@Kurt &quot;Telas&quot; Schneider&lt;/a&gt; - Mucking around with classes does have more moving parts. Even allocation systems (like Vampire&#039;s disciplines) require recalibrating when you find out that in this GM&#039;s world everyone has lots of Auspex, making your investment in Obfuscate worthless-- or in Spirit of the Century, when a cool seeming aspect never comes up in play, for good or ill.

&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-8257&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@BryanB&lt;/a&gt; - You&#039;re right; as Martin explains, it&#039;s best to give &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/gming-142-spotlight-moment&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;each character a spotlight moment&lt;/a&gt; each session. If you manage that, most players will enjoy enough parts of their character that you won&#039;t have to rewrite much.  

There are always strange setups that makes one skill critical, or another worthless-- and you often have to play for a while to figure out which is which.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8259&#039;,&#039;Scott Martin&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='#comment-8255' rel="nofollow">@Kurt &#8220;Telas&#8221; Schneider</a> &#8211; Mucking around with classes does have more moving parts. Even allocation systems (like Vampire&#8217;s disciplines) require recalibrating when you find out that in this GM&#8217;s world everyone has lots of Auspex, making your investment in Obfuscate worthless&#8211; or in Spirit of the Century, when a cool seeming aspect never comes up in play, for good or ill.</p>
<p><a href='#comment-8257' rel="nofollow">@BryanB</a> &#8211; You&#8217;re right; as Martin explains, it&#8217;s best to give <a href="http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/gming-142-spotlight-moment" rel="nofollow">each character a spotlight moment</a> each session. If you manage that, most players will enjoy enough parts of their character that you won&#8217;t have to rewrite much.  </p>
<p>There are always strange setups that makes one skill critical, or another worthless&#8211; and you often have to play for a while to figure out which is which.
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		<title>By: Tyson J. Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8258</link>
		<dc:creator>Tyson J. Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 19:08:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=5487#comment-8258</guid>
		<description>&lt;a href=&#039;#comment-8257&#039; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;@BryanB&lt;/a&gt; - Savage World&#039;s has it&#039;s ups and downs for building characters.  Personally I use skills to help define a character, and in 3.0/3.5 D&amp;D would take some of the &quot;useless&quot; skills such as profession to round out the character.  Savage Worlds or any of the classless systems don&#039;t allow for that.

That being said I running Savage Worlds and enjoy playing it as well, so it&#039;s a different mind set of character building.&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8258&#039;,&#039;Tyson J. Hayes&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href='#comment-8257' rel="nofollow">@BryanB</a> &#8211; Savage World&#8217;s has it&#8217;s ups and downs for building characters.  Personally I use skills to help define a character, and in 3.0/3.5 D&amp;D would take some of the &#8220;useless&#8221; skills such as profession to round out the character.  Savage Worlds or any of the classless systems don&#8217;t allow for that.</p>
<p>That being said I running Savage Worlds and enjoy playing it as well, so it&#8217;s a different mind set of character building.
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		<title>By: BryanB</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8257</link>
		<dc:creator>BryanB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 18:25:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.gnomestew.com/?p=5487#comment-8257</guid>
		<description>Nice article Scott. You bring up a lot of good points.

I&#039;m inclined to allow players to re-train some things, particularly in a system like D&amp;D 3.5 where a character&#039;s build seems so important, especially when you forgot a feat that turns out to be a major stepping stone towards what you intended to do later on. It happens.

But like Kurt says, that is one of the attractions of a classless game like Savage Worlds, where such character building is less crucial, though still somewhat present in the advancement options. I need more experience with Savage Worlds though before I can draw full comparisons.

I think it is important for the GM and Players to work together to build the character that each player wants to play. I think it is also incumbent on the GM to try and have situations where the player gets to shine in the way that they designed him to as well.

The D&amp;D Rogue that gets turned into a second-class Fighter because the GM doesn&#039;t like having the thief get thieving opportunities or the Star Wars Noble that never has a chance to use his persuasion talents is only going to be frustrating for the player.

You once told me about a frustrating experience where you loaded up on social skills, after being told that the game would be heavy on intrigue and politics, only to find that the game was much more action oriented and combat based. It is my opinion that the GM failed in this case because he set the table one way and then served you a meal that you didn’t order.

If I ever encourage you to build your PC one way and then run things the complete opposite, you will need to toss your tea mug at me. :D&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8257&#039;,&#039;BryanB&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article Scott. You bring up a lot of good points.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m inclined to allow players to re-train some things, particularly in a system like D&amp;D 3.5 where a character&#8217;s build seems so important, especially when you forgot a feat that turns out to be a major stepping stone towards what you intended to do later on. It happens.</p>
<p>But like Kurt says, that is one of the attractions of a classless game like Savage Worlds, where such character building is less crucial, though still somewhat present in the advancement options. I need more experience with Savage Worlds though before I can draw full comparisons.</p>
<p>I think it is important for the GM and Players to work together to build the character that each player wants to play. I think it is also incumbent on the GM to try and have situations where the player gets to shine in the way that they designed him to as well.</p>
<p>The D&amp;D Rogue that gets turned into a second-class Fighter because the GM doesn&#8217;t like having the thief get thieving opportunities or the Star Wars Noble that never has a chance to use his persuasion talents is only going to be frustrating for the player.</p>
<p>You once told me about a frustrating experience where you loaded up on social skills, after being told that the game would be heavy on intrigue and politics, only to find that the game was much more action oriented and combat based. It is my opinion that the GM failed in this case because he set the table one way and then served you a meal that you didn’t order.</p>
<p>If I ever encourage you to build your PC one way and then run things the complete opposite, you will need to toss your tea mug at me. <img src='http://www.gnomestew.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':D' class='wp-smiley' />
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		<title>By: Kurt "Telas" Schneider</title>
		<link>http://www.gnomestew.com/gming-advice/character-fixes-making-characters-enjoyable/comment-page-1#comment-8255</link>
		<dc:creator>Kurt "Telas" Schneider</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 07 Dec 2009 16:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>I have difficulty customizing a race or class, even though I&#039;m an inveterate rules tweaker.  

I&#039;m always afraid that I&#039;ll unbalance something, and have to go back and fix it.  I&#039;d have ticked off most of the table by giving one player a custom class, and then ticked off that player by nerfing it later.  

Which may explain why I like class-less games...&lt;div class=&quot;comment-remix-meta&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;#&quot; class=&quot;replyto&quot; onclick=&quot;replyto(&#039;8255&#039;,&#039;Kurt \&quot;Telas\&quot; Schneider&#039;); return false;&quot;&gt;Reply&lt;/a&gt; &lt;/div&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have difficulty customizing a race or class, even though I&#8217;m an inveterate rules tweaker.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;m always afraid that I&#8217;ll unbalance something, and have to go back and fix it.  I&#8217;d have ticked off most of the table by giving one player a custom class, and then ticked off that player by nerfing it later.  </p>
<p>Which may explain why I like class-less games&#8230;
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